I did test a few things on the trip to OK. I took my mamanometer with some extra hose, the extra cooler for the oil cooler water and the fuel filter in the PCV line.

The mamanometer proves high and low pressure areas on a scale of 1 to 10 inches of water calibrated in 2/10" graduations. It is real hard to have a stable base point for "normal" pressure. I found that the cabin with the CC on but at the lowest fan setting to be the most representative of static pressure If I closed the windows and turned the CC off it tends to seal off the cabin, with the windows open it creates low pressure in the cabin. I tested the fender area where my cone filter is, the under hood area where an open filter would be, at the grill opening and two places at the cowl.

All showed some degree of higher pressure most around +8/10" at 60 to 80 mph. The cowl up by the CC intake was similar but at the windshield wipers it was +2" to 3". This is a good high pressure area which would increase with speed.

The extra cooler didn't leak even with the off road excursions and I'm sure did help in the OK heat. The harder the engine is worked the more this will help.

The gas filter was a clear plastic one and was distorting from the heat. It did allow some of the vapor to condense and stay on the housing. This with only 2800 miles. I replaced it with an all metal one.

Just for the record as far as Bob Fijal reported on the use of synthetics, Doug Lewis was referring to racing conditions with disregard to the normal change intervals. The ATX fluid in my '97 will last only 15k on regular fluid and 30k on synthetic. It is far more important here to have clean fluid. A good test of cleanliness of your fluid is a drop of new and some from you tranny stick on a white paper towel. You will know when you see it. I use Amsoil in the tranny and PS. I have no upshift problems but it is slow to downshift into 2nd when done manually.

As far as oil goes I've been looking for a reason to go to regular dino juice. I think if changed at 3k there is no problem as long as the correct weight for the season is used. Doug Lewis theorized that the synthetic oil allowed both the cam and the shims to wear at the same rate. The shims are suppose to take the wear and the cam shouldn't show any. He has seen Yamaha engines run on synthetic with worn down cam lobes.

Paul Nimz

Well let me ask this question..... the 96-99 SHO's engine and transmission are exactly the same correct? How is Mercon V recommended for the 98-99 SHO's while mercon 4 (or was it 3?) is recommended for the 96-97 SHO's??? They are the SAME thing?? Just curious.

Ryan S.
Pittsburgh, PA
97 TR
Porterized w/ K&N panel
Dynomax Thrush Turbo Mufflers
SARC Switch
Xenon Remote Control Driving Lights

What ever type you use I would not pay any attention to the OEM change interval. Way too long.

Paul Nimz
'97 TR
'93 EG mtx

Where has Scooter been lately? Scott Miller, he's your boy right Ryan. He would also have first hand knowledge of trannies using MercV vs. Merc III. I remember him sayin something about the trannies he took apart in school and the clear differences between those with the V and those with III. I'm sure the clutch packs and what not have been modified for the newer fluid.

Chris

lol.. well i'm going to see him tonight .. (party at sharons). Not sure if he'll know what to recommend.. well he might i dunno.. i'll ask him though. He's been offlist alot i'm sure.. working alot and it's summer.. you gotta be outside w/ a 6 pack strapped to your waste detailing the car.. or something!

Ryan S.
Pittsburgh, PA
97 TR
Porterized w/ K&N panel
Dynomax Thrush Turbo Mufflers
SARC Switch
Xenon Remote Control Driving Lights

That just blows...............everything that i've ever thought about synthetic fluids is going down the drain. Although I don't want to believe what Doug said, I kinda have to since very few people know more about these cars than Doug. What about synthetic motor oils exactly causes problems with our V6 and V8 engines? Is it just not compatible or something like that?

June H. Han

Apparently the synthetics do too good of a job. In the ATX it is slippage when the clutches make contact, and on the engine it is that the valve shim is too well protected. He did say that if you want the tires to bark on upshifts it is a matter of adjustment. I've had extremely good luck with the Amsoil ATX fluid and will continue using it in this tranny.

Paul Nimz
'97 TR
'93 EG mtx

Doug also said that the synthetic oil problem was specific to the Yamaha motors. Their valve shims are 1 step softer than the cam lobes. If they were two or 3 steps softer there would be no problem. Perhaps a blend of dino and synthetics would be the answer? I believe in the case of Mercon V that it is a blended formula.

Paul Nimz
'97 TR
'93 EG mtx

Ford makes running changes and model year changes in their transmissions. Different springs and friction material are two things they can change. All Gen 3 SHOs have the AX4N. 96-97 use Mercon or Dexron III. All 98-99 use Mercon V.

Glen Murdock
Port Lavaca,TX
97 PG 66k
89 CR 127k

WE had fun at work this week... one of the claims adjusters had a 97 Sable tranny fail and had a hell of a time getting parts. Seems the front pump blew up. {behind a 3.0 Duratec}. Ford pump $1200 and no stock {surprise}Mister Transmission {shop were car was at, Nation wide Chain here} could not get parts, one of our rebuilders could not get them. Customer wanted his car back in a hurry. As outlined in his agreement we offered a used one. {55,000kms on unit car has 123,000kms on it} no flames or comments any one wants to know why can contact me off-list. Well seems that the Taurus/Sable use a different Transmission depending on where the heck the shifter is {floor vs. Column}. Then the shop says well it must have a SHO tranny in it. OK I check a TSB for Hard shifts and it shows 4 different part numbers. One for the SHO, one for the 3.0 Vulcan {slug} and 2 for the duratec depending on the shifter. I had read somewhere that the SHO Trans uses one more clutch plate in its packs... anyone knew if it is true???

Also I posted about one of our customer's have a loud tick in his SHO at Idle. Have not heard how the Shop as made out but last conversation I had on Wednesday with Dealership was the problem was a Sticking intake valve. Cause was Carbon build-up. they used a borescope and could see the carbon buildup on the valve and in the combustion chamber. Customer drives to and from Toronto for work, All highway miles... Garage was waiting for a machine from Snap-ON Tools {big coin}to clean it out. Strikes me as odd since car had a head off last year for heli-coiling a spark plug hole when shop cross threaded a hole and plug decided to depart the engine on our highway 401....

Clare Allenby
96 TR w/Graphite Cloth Interior
35% Window Tint
Chrome Explorer V8 Badges
P225/55/16 94V Yokohama Avid V4
Cherry Bomb Turbo II Mufflers
London, ON

You're right, Bob. The tranny fluid choice has nothing to do with driving conditions, but the setup of the clutches, etc. Synthetic in a non-synthetic tranny (a la pre-'98) is not recommended because the friction is too low for the clutch material. The tranny must be set up for the synthetic. Now, putting non-synthetic in a synthetic tranny should firm up the shifts.....hmmmmm.

Ron Porter
Lake Orion, MI
'99 black 33K

Obviously Ford changed the internals for the different fluid. I'm sure that this is how Doug can set up the tranny for either dino or synth, depending on what you want. Mercon has been around forever, so they obviously did some upgrades for the Mercon V.

Ron Porter
Lake Orion, MI
'99 black 33K

I am a believer in the 3K oil change, and the correct weight is 5W-30 for all seasons, I don't see a need to adjust.

OTOH, I'm glad that I ran 0W-30 Mobil 1 for this trip. I was going to do an extended change with the Mobil 1 ((I even put in a better Bosch filter). I looked at the oil today, and it is darker than any oil I've seen in the car so far, and this is after 2K miles from the trip & Hallett. The tranny fluid picked up some color also. I'll just go with a 3K change for the oil/filter, plus do another Mercon V change. I'll go back to dino 5W-30 with the "on sale" oil filter, though.

Ron Porter
Lake Orion, MI
'99 black 33K

Are two topics getting confused here? There is the synthetic tranny juice and the synthetic motor oil.

June, the tranny issue makes perfect sense. A certain amount of friction is required for the clutches to work properly, and the tranny must have clutch material and engagement routines to work properly.

The shim issue has to do with the motor oil. Doug claims to have seen this on the SHO cam lobes. He believes that synthetic is great for every engine application, except where the Yamaha cam lobes are concerned.

From all I've heard, and from what Doug said, Mercon V is a full synthetic.

Ron Porter
Lake Orion, MI
'99 black 33K

How the hell do you get carbon in an engine with EFI running unleaded fuel? Especially with highway miles?

That ticking sounds like Mike Holhut's sound that Doug diagnosed as the cam sprocket.

Ron Porter
Lake Orion, MI
'99 black 33K

hmmm.. didn't you all say he drove home w/ it like that? Couldn't that totally screw up his engine if it totally went off? If it went off.. wouldn't there be a 100% chance of hitting a valve and screwing up like the valves.. cams.. piston.. even the crank??? I think I'd call AAA or something.. hehe. I dunno.. that would SUCK though.

Ryan S.
Pittsburgh, PA
97 TR
Porterized w/ K&N panel
Dynomax Thrush Turbo Mufflers
SARC Switch
Xenon Remote Control Driving Lights

The PCV system will introduce gunk that when heated, the lighter components will evaporate and carbon will be left behind.

Paul Nimz
'97 TR
'93 EG mtx

Ron, since you've been running dino oil for this long, it probably normal that your 0w30 Mobil 1 should be very dark. Since most synthetics have a superior detergent and anti-sludge package than dino oil, it probably was just doing it's job and cleaned out your engine. I actually had the same thing happen to me when I first switched to Mobil 1 from using nothing but dino oil on my old 97 SLO. After a few synthetic oil changes, the oil didn't get so dark so quickly.

June H. Han

Jason,
After every convention the synthetic thing comes up after Doug's talk. I can't explain why Doug sees cam wear with synthetic (and he says it is with both Mobil 1 and Amsoil along with other synthetics). Several other SHO mechanics that work on a lot of motors do not see the same pattern. Maybe it is the heat in Atlanta? Maybe it is luck of the draw, maybe it is true.

I like and recommend (and sell Amsoil, so this is my "truth in advertising" disclaimer) synthetic oil. I have 176,000 on my 89 with synthetic since the car was 40,000 miles young. I see no cam wear, but I am only looking at one motor. Maybe it is how the car was broken in. I still believe in breaking in motors on conventional oil, even though the Corvette, several diesel companies and other cars come brand new with synthetic and have no problems.

With any oil, you should change it on a regular planned schedule. Synthetics won't last longer than regular oil UNLESS they are formulated that way. Amsoil is. Maybe some of those failures come from using synthetic not formulated for extended drain intervals. I also believe in oil analysis. Test your oil regularly to see what is happening. I believe in good filters and extra bypass filtering if possible. I say you can use Mobil 1 (even Amsoil says it is good oil, just not AS good as Amsoil :) ) without fear. keep it fresh according to the manufacturer and oil manufacturer recommend. Use a good filter. If in doubt, use a quality regular oil, change it often and don't worry. If you go racing, change the oil immediately though, conventional oil just can't take the heat that synthetic can.

Don Mallinson

I have been using Mobil 1 for about 14,000 miles. I change it every 4,000-5,000 miles. I will say, tho, that it is cleaner looking than some of the other cars I have changed oil on, with regular oil. I'll continue to use it, because I can go the extra mileage on it, and it gets to be a pain to do the upkeep on our cars. Especially since we both drive so much.

I've used Mobil 1 since I had my '97 SHO and run it in the '93 I've got to. The '93 burns oil and I would like to get away from the expensive stuff. With the comments that June has made and what Doug Lewis said along with the success of others who use dino oil, I'm thinking of changing both back to the normal oils. Mobil one has not lowered their price since the reformulation and I can't rally see using it unless extended drain intervals are in the game plan.

I currently change my oil every 5k on both cars, highway driving is the norm. What are some good brands of oil for our SHO's?

Paul Nimz
'97 TR
'93 EG mtx

----- Original Message -----
From: "June H. Han" <jhan@cinci.rr.com
To: <shotimes@topica.com
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: synthetic oil and yamaha


Hi Arjun, apparantly, according to the definition of what a synthetic oil is from the SAE, it's perfectly legal to label a Group III Base oil as long as it meets the minimum performance requirements of a "synthetic" oil. In fact, Castrol Syntec was one of the first fully synthetic oils that switched from being fully synthetic, to being just a Group III Base oil. When Castrol continued to label their new Syntec formulation as a fully synthetic motor oil, Mobil sued Castrol because Mobil at the time was fully synthetic using nothing but 100% PAO's. They sued that Castrol shouldn't be able to call their "synthetically enhanced" motor oil a synthetic when there is absolutely nothing synthetic about it. About a year after losing their lawsuit against Castrol, Mobil changed the formulation on their Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil to a bogus misleading "tri-synthetic" badge and did exactly what Castrol did with Syntec. Mobil 1 is now no longer a full synthetic and that really shows in the new tests results that have been done by Amsoil since Mobil 1 no longer scores as high with the new formulation. In fact, unlike Castrol, Mobil isn't even trying to hide it and it is written plain and clear on the side of the Mobil 1 bottle about it having Group III base oils. However, I think that Mobil is still one of the best of them out there, even if it's not fully synthetic anymore. Mobil's website is currently down, but they used to have some tech sheets on their website. It's sad what the world is coming to when a company can call basically an advanced dino oil a fully synthetic oil. I'm an avid Amsoil user, and the ironic thing, is that Amsoil used to purchase their base PAO's from Mobil.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arjun Khosla" <arjun@mtrs.org
To: <jhan@cinci.rr.com
Cc: <shotimes@topica.com
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: synthetic oil and yamaha


I've stayed away from synthetics because I don't really believe in many of their advantages, but if you're saying that some of those synthetics are at their base Group III oils, then that's gotta be an extreme of false advertising-- oils with a group III base are only worth $2-3 per litre, in Canadian dollars! (less than a couple bucks when bought in bulk!) That's what's in Esso, Chevron, and (I'm pretty sure) Texaco's premium oils are. One of their biggest selling points to corporate customers is that their oils are Group III base....

I think I'm going to have to stop in at a parts store tomorrow to look at "Synthetic" oils...

-Arjun



"June H. Han" wrote:

Ok, this is more or less just a rambling and a thought that kinda popped into my head, but basically Doug Lewis has said that synthetic engine oil is bad for our yamaha based engines(v8sho engine is only 25% yamaha, but nonetheless a yamaha). What exactly is the definition of a synthetic oil in this case? The reason why I ask this, is because most of the oils that are claimed to be full synthetic(Castrol Syntec, Mobil 1, etc....) in fact are nearly 0% synthetic! Most of today's "full synthetic's" have switched to a hydrocracked oil in which you take regular dino oil and hack it's molecules and highly refine it which is just a crude way of explaining it. If you read the side of the bottle for oils like Mobil 1, and Syntec, it will read that it's composed of Group III Base oils which is highly suggestive that the base is just a modified and highly refined dino oil. This might explain why Mobil 1's test scores dropped a bit after they switched to their new "Tri-Synthetic" formula. Oil's like Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec or more or less a synthetic blend since the base stock is based on dino oil. Examples of "full synthetics" that are still fully synthetic with a 100% synthetic base are Amsoil, Redline, and a few others. These oils are either composed of PolyAlphaOlefin's(PAO's), or Diethers(Redline) and can truly be claimed as being 100% synthetic. If synthetic oil is not good for our yamaha based engines, what if we were to use a fully synthetic oil that really isn't fully synthetic anymore? What could we expect if we used an oil that is claimed to be fully synthetic because they modifed the molecules of a dino oil to act like a synthetic? In other words, lots of fully synthetic oils on the market act like a synthetic, but are not synthetic which is in the case of Castrol Syntec and Mobil 1. I'm pretty sure most of the other "fully synthetic" oils are not synthetic either, i've just not looked into them yet.

Paul, Pennzoil's regular conventional oil enhanced by Pennzane is probably the best dino oil you can buy. I havn't heard much about it except for a couple tests that Amsoil did on it, and Pennzoil's regular conventional oil scored far better than any other conventional oil and actually scored better than some synthetics in the wear test! That is pretty impressive out of a regular conventional oil. It probably doesn't have the high temperature stability, or the low temperature fluidity of the "synthetics" on the market, but that's pretty impressive. A lot of the crownvic.net guys use Pennzoil with Pennzane and have been happy and have had extremely good luck with it. After hearing about what Doug has said, i'm debating going to regular oil, but that's kind of hard to do when you've been a diehard synthetic user your whole life. I currently use Amsoil with extended drain intervals. I'm really curious how our engines will be effected if I were to use one of those Group III based "synthetic" oils like Mobil 1 or Castrol syntec since they are really not a synthetic and Doug said that "synthetic's" were bad.

I would go with Valvoline. I talked with a mechanic who only works Honda's and he said Valvoline engines are always clean while Pennzoil and Quaker State are dirty with sludge. He will not use Pennzoil or QS in any vehicle. If I go back to dino oil I would use Valvoling 5w/30 and a good quality filter like a Bosh or AC Ultraguard that Lewis is selling. Cheap filters are just that...CHEAP. Tim Wright spent a lot of money buying filters and tearing them apart and you would be amazed at the construction of some, like Fram. Running a good quality dino oil doesn't do any good if your filter is a POS. I'm not an expert but I have access to those that are...people that rebuild engines for a living and we got to hear one last Wednesday night and what he said about the oil and the yamaha engines has been mentioned on this list a long time ago....

Bob Fijal
97
Missouri
Mobile 1 user...for now


I've used Mobil 1 since I had my '97 SHO and run it in the '93 I've got to. The '93 burns oil and I would like to get away from the expensive stuff. With the comments that June has made and what Doug Lewis said along with the success of others who use dino oil, I'm thinking of changing both back to the normal oils. Mobil one has not lowered their price since the reformulation and I can't rally see using it unless extended drain intervals are in the game plan.

I currently change my oil every 5k on both cars, highway driving is the norm. What are some good brands of oil for our SHO's?

Paul Nimz
'97 TR
'93 EG mtx

I don't know if Valvoline has updated their formulation recently, but the last time I checked, Valvoline had a higher ash content than almost any oil out there. It's true that Pennzoil and QS used to form sludge due to a high amount of parrifin in the oil, but I believe that was changed when they changed their formulation very recently for both their conventional and synthetic oil. I believe their conventional oil uses a base they call purebase.

June Han

Kendall.

I don't remember the particulars, but I had read about racers using Kendall, and that Kendall contains more of a rather expensive additive (how's that for scientific proof) that is better for lubricating the shear-type surfaces: like rings, SHO cam lobes, etc. Turns out that AutoZone carries it, and I have started using it (except when something else is on a really good sale!). It costs the same as most of the other common oils on the shelf.

Ron Porter
Lake Orion, MI
'99 black 33K

I've run Kendall off & on since the 60's - especially when I was running a lot of very high rpm auto-x's........it's a very good high quality oil. You don't hear much about it - kind of like our SHO's.

Bill H.